Empathy is more than an intention. It’s a practice.
You care about your team. But how does that care show up when you’re giving difficult feedback, setting expectations, or navigating a question you don’t yet know how to answer?
In this episode, Claude Silver shares lessons from her journey to becoming Chief Heart Officer at VaynerMedia, and from the everyday work of helping people communicate, grow, and feel supported.
Together, Claude and Micaela explore emotional fluency: moving beyond recognizing a feeling to choosing how to express it constructively. They discuss why new managers need tools they can use in their next one-on-one, how vague urgency creates confusion, and why feedback should be an ongoing conversation rather than a surprise.
The conversation also gets practical about scaling empathy. Claude shares ways to pass along recognition, notice when someone becomes quieter, and turn a check-in into meaningful follow-through. And as they explore AI-assisted feedback and communication, they return to a central responsibility: reviewing the output with evidence, context, and human judgment.
What you’ll learn
Try this in your next one-on-one
Use “Rose, Bud, Thorn” to open the conversation: What’s going well? What’s developing? What’s difficult?
Then identify one action you’ll take based on what you heard. That might mean making an introduction, following up on a concern, or looking into a recurring issue.
The goal isn’t just to have a thoughtful conversation. It’s to make your attention useful.
About Claude Silver
Claude Silver’s path to becoming Chief Heart Officer at VaynerMedia includes advertising strategy, mentoring, and a longstanding interest in people and human behavior. In this episode, she shares how she approaches empathy, communication, and employee development, and what she’s learning about leading through uncertainty herself.
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Transcript
Micaela Mathre 00:00
There’s a little bit of a fallacy that people don’t bring emotion into the workplace, and I think the truth is is that
Claude Silver 00:07
How could we not? So emotional intelligence has been around for a while. We, we know what that is. I think it’s something either, you know, you’re born with, you learn. I don’t think that’s enough. Think it’s great to have self-awareness, but what am I doing with that self-awareness?And so emotional fluency is the ability to speak, to literally be literate in emotion. Any way in which we can translate what we’re feeling in a way that does not charge on another person, pounce on another person. Why does anyone in the workplace need this? Well, oh, my God, the workplace is filled with people. We are the company, and we are in relationship with one another. So if anything, you need to know how to relate to yourself, and then know how to share, express in a way that is a shared experience rather than a one-up experience.
Micaela Mathre 00:57
Welcome to the LeaderLab podcast. I’m Micaela Mathre, chief marketing officer at Life Loves Learning. If you’re a senior people leader, you’re navigating a workplace that’s changing faster than ever. This season, we’re exploring what it really takes to build resilient and adaptable leaders, managers, and teams. Let’s dive in.Welcome to the studio today, Claude. Thank you so much for joining me. I am so thrilled to welcome Claude Silver, who is the world’s first chief heart officer, a role that she holds at VaynerX, supporting over 2,000 employees around the world. Claude is also a speaker, a podcaster, and the author of Be Yourself at Work: The Groundbreaking Power of Showing Up, Standing Out, and Leading from the Heart. Her work focuses on emotional optimism, emotional bravery, and emotional efficiency, skills that help leaders act with greater clarity, courage, and care. I would love to hear a bit about your trajectory, what brought you to be a chief heart officer, and, and just tell us what that means.
Claude Silver 01:55
Amazing. Okay, I’ll just go back in time a little bit. I’ve always had an interest in people. I think I’ve always been intuitive. I had no idea that’s what it was. I just felt like from a very early age I could pick up on people. And I’ve always been an empath. I mean, my parents, uh, and you read it in the book, always said to me, with love, you know, “You think too much with your heart, Claude. When are you gonna learn to think with your head?” Which I didn’t even know what that meant.
Claude Silver 02:18
So what I will say is I just had this fascination with psychology and mythology and spirituality, and I needed to figure myself out because I didn’t like where I was headed in my early 20s, and so I had to stop the train for a second. I went on a, a 93-day wilderness leadership Outward Bound course, which really changed the trajectory of who I am in many, many ways. And then I did a deep dive in, in my own therapy, went to a therapist, went to a somatic therapist, did Reiki, all of that, and then also learned how to do chakra healings and past life regressions and things that just are in this ether somewhere, and just continued to study deep psychology in terms of transpersonal, in terms of the integration of all of us, in terms of Joseph Campbell or Jung and whatnot. So that’s, like, a real passion of mine. A real, real big passion. And that happened to help me in this wide world of digital, which I was in, uh, right place, right time in San Francisco, 1998, in the first dot com boom.
Claude Silver 03:25
And that’s where I started this career, and I ended up at advertising agencies, not knowing what the heck that was, what’s comms, what’s marketing, what’s comm strategy. And a chief strategic officer at the time came over to me one day and he said, “I think you’re a strategist.” Didn’t know what that was, but I followed him and my career took off like that in terms of being a strategist, a digital strategist, a creative strategist within global advertising agencies.
Claude Silver 03:53
Why? Well, because, A, I, I love breaking things down for clients in a very simple way. That to me, as I, as I’m doing with teaching and, and curriculum, I don’t want to be the smartest person in the room. I’m not the smartest person, but I wanna be clear and I wanna be kind and make sure that whatever it is I’m delivering can be heard in several different people’s ears. I would say I’ve always been an unofficial mentor. I mean, I, I believe in that, and even in high school I was, you know, captain of this or captain of that. I like people. I love being a cheerleader. I’ll say after 9/11 happened and many of us got laid off in San Francisco, my friend and I started an outdoor adventure company where I taught surfing for, like, 270 days a year.
Micaela Mathre 04:41
Really?
Claude Silver 04:41
Yeah, I had a-
Micaela Mathre 04:41
I took my sur- my first surf lesson-
Claude Silver 04:43
You did?
Micaela Mathre 04:43
… two weeks ago.
Claude Silver 04:44
How was it?
Micaela Mathre 04:44
I loved it. I loved it.
Claude Silver 04:46
It’s great, right?
Micaela Mathre 04:47
Oh, it lit me up. Like, it just, it felt so calm-
Claude Silver 04:50
Mm-hmm
Micaela Mathre 04:51
… and, like, peaceful.
Claude Silver 04:52
You know, I’m a cheerleader without pom-poms. I just believe in people.Wherever…you know, when I push them into the water, if, if they get on their knees, fantastic. If they get up, fantastic. So you bring all of that, this minestrone soup that I am, to Gary Vaynerchuk when we met 13 years ago and he hired me to be the first SVP in New York.
Claude Silver 05:15
We didn’t have anything called strategy and we didn’t have anything called client partnership. It was just called account strat, and no one knew what strat was. I was running our largest account at the time, Unilever, and, and, you know, the average age was 23, and I was almost double that. So I had a lot of lived experience as well as agency experience.
Claude Silver 05:33
And so while I was running that team, and I love them, about 60 people, I also was doing a lot of the training and a lot of this is how you interview and these are some questions you can ask and this is how you might wanna give feedback and this is how you might have to terminate.
Micaela Mathre 05:45
People skills.
Claude Silver 05:46
All of these things. That really rely on deep empathy, self-awareness. And one thing led to another and, um, I just got very tired of advertising and I said to Gary one day, you know, “Thank you. This is the best place. You’re the best,” whatever, “but I don’t wanna do this anymore.” And he said, “What do you wanna do?”
Claude Silver 06:03
And I said, “I only care about the people here. I care about the heartbeat.” And one thing led to another- Several, several months later, I actually resigned because there was no job that I wanted there. And then three months later, he called me back and he said, “That’s it. You’re gonna be the chief heart officer.” And I said a couple things. One, “You know I never wanted to do HR, right?”
Claude Silver 06:25
And he said, “Yeah, well, you’re gonna do it, and you’ll hire a great team around you.” And 10 and a half years later, they- they’re fantastic.They’ve all been trained in psychological safety and things that I believe we need to be, who we need to be and show up as, and what we need to provide people in the workplace.
Claude Silver 06:43
Then I said, “How do we know what we’re building here?” And he said, “We’re- we’re building the single greatest human organization in the history of time.” And I was like, “Yeah, sign me up for that.” And then I said, “How do we know if I’m successful? There’s no job description.” Still no job description. And he said, “You’ll touch every single employee and infuse the agency with empathy.”
Claude Silver 07:01
And so I had to figure out how to do that, and how to scale that, and how to train that, and how to rely on others, and cultivate culture champions all over the globe, and, you know, train the people and experience team, and then our leaders needed to start to show up as adults and walk the walk of adults rather than, you know, pretending that they were the smartest people in the room.
Claude Silver 07:23
If Gary was here today, he would say my role is to be the emotional framework for the organization. What that means is to consistently show up as I do, and consistently help people show up in a way that makes them flourish, makes their team thrive, and is successful for everyone.And so much of that is behavioral.
Micaela Mathre 07:47
Yeah, absolutely. What an incredible opportunity, and I appreciate… I mean, I read it in your book, and as you’re talking about it here on the podcast, just, like, sharing that experience with others.Like, uh, wouldn’t it be amazing if every organization had somebody who was thinking about empathy and connection and like, what a different workplace, like, um-
Claude Silver 08:09
Yeah, imagine a world, and I will, where everyone just is wired like you or wired like me.
Claude Silver 08:15
And so you don’t even need a CHO. It just happens.It just is, and we’re not there yet. We’re not there just because the nature of everything, but the nature of work, the nature of scarcity, the nature of you know, well, if you, if you win, I lose.
Claude Silver 08:31
And that’s opposite. If you win, I win.
Claude Silver 08:33
Right?
Micaela Mathre 08:34
Totally.
Claude Silver 08:34
We have a lot of work to do, but, you know, I’m hopeful.
Micaela Mathre 08:37
I would love to kinda shift gears, and I’d love to know just, like, a little bit more about your background with LifeLab. So you’re at VaynerX, VaynerMedia, and we’ve worked with them in the past, so yeah, your experience with LifeLab.
Claude Silver 08:49
Well, I love LifeLab, and we took some workshops the last two years, and I know that our employee base really enjoyed the way LifeLab delivers learning, which is so important, especially when there’s four or five different generations in a workplace and we need to kind of get them in different ways.
Claude Silver 09:08
We need to bring the ball to them in terms of listening and what they’re going to pay attention to and how they’re going to a- adapt.
Micaela Mathre 09:15
Oh, that’s so interesting. And you were recently, or you were just telling me before we started recording, that you’re kinda taking a look at L&D at Vayner. I’m just curious about your initial thinking about that.Like, you mentioned you wrapped up your book last year, and after you publish that, like you’re looking for the next thing.
Claude Silver 09:32
And I was like, what else can I fill my brain with? And what can I do that’s gonna be of value at VaynerX, and what can I do that’s gonna be of value to me or my family and other things? So the way I’m looking at it is- is just in a very simple way.
Claude Silver 09:45
What do people need to succeed at their job from a behavioral point of view? I’m not teaching hard skills. I’m not teaching Photoshop. I’m not teaching, you know, Adobe Premiere, but behaviors and why, why we do certain things, why we don’t, why we shrink at work, why we feel like we need to politic, why we are afraid to show up as ourselves, you know, all of those things. And so I’m really looking at, you know, manager training 101, 102 is just kind of, congratulations, you’re a manager.
Claude Silver 10:19
Most of the time we say, “Congratulations, you’re a manager. See ya.” But this is going to be kind of encapsulating what that really means, I would say, from a very tactical point of view, not… And I don’t do classroom style, conversational, role playing, all of those things.
Claude Silver 10:36
But really trying to chip away at, what can I give them today that they can take away and they can go do and implement in that one-on-one? And why do they actually need to think about what they’re gonna do in a one-on-one rather than receiving?Now they’re going to be the one that is proactively reaching out and saying, “How can I help you with your growth and development?” Those types of things. So I’m really pumped. I mean, I- I look at things from a, like, almost a kindergartner point of view.
Claude Silver 11:02
Because I think… It’s not to dumb it down. I just think we make things so complicated with jargon and all of this stuff that I’d rather just give people what I think they need and the context of why, and then they take the gift and leave the rest.I don’t- I’m not precious.
Micaela Mathre 11:19
Ooh, I love that framing, and I’m excited for that new exploration for you.At LifeLab, we always talk about the workplace as a lab, and we’re really into the concept of just experimentation. Can you try something new and different, and what does that look like? And I think for every company and culture, it really varies, too. Like, what does learning look like at Vayner is probably very different than, you know, what lo- learning looks like-
Claude Silver 11:45
1000%
Micaela Mathre 11:45
yeah, at a different organization.
Claude Silver 11:47
1000%, and because we are such a high growth company, there’s so much learning that’s going on and change that’s going on every single day for them. So how can I help them anchor with something?That at least will continue to develop their leadership skills, communication, accountability, growth mindset skills. And if I can be helpful in that arena, then I, I think they’re halfway there. If not, actually more than halfway there, really.
Micaela Mathre 12:12
As you’re thinking about that, and just, like, the rate of change in the workplace, and I think, like, Vayner’s a good example of this, like, fast-paced, cutting edge, how can learning and facilitated learning be a grounding place for connection? Which is my work at Life Vibes, what I am so energized by, is creating space for connection.
Micaela Mathre 12:33
My background’s in education. I care deeply about learning. I care deeply about loneliness. I think, you know, there is truly, like, an epidemic. Like, people are very lonely, and I think, like, the workplace is such a powerful place for us to build connection with one another, and learning is a vehicle for that. It’s not the only one at work. But tell me about, like, what does it look like to create a learning environment in the midst of that kind of rapid growth and, like, pace of change?
Claude Silver 13:04
First and foremost, I think we’re, you know, we’re- we’re twin flames ’cause connection is what it’s all about to me. Like, connective tissue and, and building that, and making sure people feel as though they belong. So I’m with you.
Claude Silver 13:16
That’s such a great question, of what does this all look like while people are moving 70,000 miles a minute and have so much to do in their day job? And I’ve thought about it in a way of just framing it like, this will always be here for you. I’ll train the trainers. I don’t need to be the one that’s teaching it, which is awesome, because that’s part of the role of a leader anyway is to, yeah, here you go. Go do it your way.
Claude Silver 13:40
But I want it to be always on, in the sense that if people need something to help them get from point A, B, to C, today, within a week, within six months, I want them to have a home. I want them to f- to feel like they can come into this place and get those needs met. It’s gonna be interesting, ’cause I’ll never, I really will probably never say mandatory, unless it’s, like, sexual harassment training.
Claude Silver 14:08
But I’ll say, you know, like, it’s highly encouraged, and if you’re a new manager, you have to take this. I mean, you wanna take this. So, you know, I don’t know what kinda house I’m building here. but I’m, in my mind, I can see kind of the scaffolding of the curriculum and what I wanna fill it with, and how I want people to know, like, we’re here to provide you not only with a job, and connection, and growth, and at-bats, and opportunities, but an anchor.
Micaela Mathre 14:38
Something that we’ve seen that works really well with a lot of the companies we support is also nominating folks to take the training, and, and reaching out and having, you know, your director or your VP saying, like, “I’m choosing you, and I actually think this would be great for you.” And, and I love, I think that to me ties to that sense of belonging.Like, I see you, and I think this professional development or this learning opportunity would be really good for you. And-
Claude Silver 15:03
That’s how we actually do it
Micaela Mathre 15:04
… then I’m incentivized to go, right?
Micaela Mathre 15:05
‘Cause I’m like, “Oh.”
Claude Silver 15:06
You’re like, “Oh.”
Micaela Mathre 15:07
You know?
Claude Silver 15:07
And so a lot of times what I’ll do is, “I spoke to your leaders or I spoke to your leads and they nominated you.”
Claude Silver 15:14
So I think that’s so important, because then that ties into the recognition and reward. If we can’t monetarily reward you right now or, or whatnot, this is something that we all believe will get you far.
Micaela Mathre 15:27
Excited to, to see how that all goes and learn about that from you. I would love to hear about a leadership mistake, or we call it a face palm sometimes, that either you made or you witnessed
Claude Silver 15:42
I make ’em all the- I make ’em all the time.
Micaela Mathre 15:46
Maybe the most recent one, or one that stands out to you.
Claude Silver 15:48
Oh, gosh. I will tell you, this wasn’t recent, but it was a big faux pas that I learned from, and I would say it was probably 10, 11 years ago, when I was still getting my feet wet and understanding what it was like to really run an agency from the people point of view.
Claude Silver 16:04
Naively, I reached out on email to the directors and VPs, and I asked them to send me a list of their strongest performers and their lower performers. That went directly to Agency Spy. And ever since then, I know that I will do phone calls, or I will talk to someone face-to-face, or group face-to-face, rather than putting anything in email like that.
Claude Silver 16:30
Even the way I phrased it isn’t a way that, I- I don’t like the word bottom performer. I don’t like the word low performer. I would rather, like, the little engine that could. But that is a big, big one that I realized, oh, wow, we’re not in Kansas anymore. Like this is a mistake. This is an agency that’s tied to a very well-known entrepreneur. There were already, I think, people in the media that might have been, you know, having a good chuckle at my job title.
Micaela Mathre 16:57
Sure, sure.
Claude Silver 16:58
And it was a, it was a miss. But I learned from it.
Micaela Mathre 17:02
You did.
Claude Silver 17:02
In a big, big way. Yeah.One of the things I learned is that to slow down. I knew I needed to get these names fast so we could do what we needed to do, but I didn’t need to get them, you know, within minutes. And so there, there are other ways to get information, especially confidential information like that, and something that might be hurtful t- if it falls into the wrong hands.
Micaela Mathre 17:24
Absolutely.
Claude Silver 17:25
So that was one of the biggest pitfalls, I would say, that I have fallen in in a very long time, and it, it stays with me. It’s not a shameful cope, but just a, a good reminder to me and to others.
Claude Silver 17:37
Like, there’s also this sense of false urgency out there in many ways, and s- you know, speed has never been faster. I mean, we’re so quick. And so I’ve, something I’ve been thinking about lately is, you know, we put ASAP on our emails, or we put ASAP here, and it’s like, is it ASAP, or is that just jargon now that we use? Is it like
Claude Silver 17:59
… I’ll get this to you within the next day or so?
Claude Silver 18:02
Does that mean ASAP, or does it mean now?
Claude Silver 18:05
And- Talking about, kind of the younger generation and coming into the workforce, what does that say to them? ASAP would scare the Jesus out of me if I saw that in all caps.So these are the things I kind of, I think about and, and even, you know, thinking about that major mistake I made, just slowing down and picking up the phone.
Micaela Mathre 18:28
Taking a beat. Yep. In our feedback workshop, we actually teach this concept that we call de-blur, and it’s basically all about, as a leader and, and really just in the workplace, being clear with your communication, and ASAP is the example we use in the workshop. So we say, you know, if I, Micaela, say to Claude, “Hey, Claude, you know, will you reply to this email ASAP?”
Micaela Mathre 18:53
What that means to you might be different than what it means to Gigi, our production assistant, right? Like, Gigi might be like, “Oh, ASAP is like, you know, this is really urgent and pronto,” and whatever. And in the workshop we talk around, about this concept of de-blur, and we’re like, “Be clear, because clear is kind,” and say like, “If you mean that I need this…” You know, and maybe you do.
Micaela Mathre 19:15
Maybe you’ve got a board presentation the next day or something and you’re like, “I actually need this by 5:00 PM.” Say that instead of a bl- what we call a blurry word, which just leaves too much room for interpretation, and then you’re just kinda left… And I, I think power dynamics really play into that as well, right?
Micaela Mathre 19:31
Like, as leaders, and I’ve had this experience very recently where I say something and it’s like an idea or a concept or something, and then it’s taken as like a initiative, we’re gonna go do this. And my directors actually have been doing a great job lately of like really holding me accountable, even kinda chiming in. You know, I was on the marketing call the other week and I made a comment about, “Oh, it would be really great,” we’re hosting a conference in a couple weeks, “That’d be…” I was like, “It’d be really great if we did da, da, da, da, da.” And my director, Mackenzie, stepped in and she looks at the rest of the team and she goes, “That’s an idea, not a directive.”
Claude Silver 20:04
You don’t have to execute that now.
Micaela Mathre 20:06
And I was like, “Thank you,” and I-
Claude Silver 20:07
It’s so important
Micaela Mathre 20:08
I appreciated that she felt like she could say that in that moment.
Micaela Mathre 20:12
You know? And hold me accountable.
Claude Silver 20:14
A, massive psychological safety right there.
Micaela Mathre 20:17
True.
Claude Silver 20:17
Massive. And I love that you have an interpreter, because we do need that oftentimes, especially for those of us that are doing a lot of things at once.Oftentimes I’m Gary’s translator, Gary Vaynerchuk, our CEO, um, and I can translate a lot of what he’s saying just ’cause I’ve been around him for, for a zillion years, and the osmosis has worn off. And people need that, because if he says, “I’m gonna be watching you, and if in six months none of you have caught onto AI,” you know, that’s like, “Oh my God.” What he’s really saying is, “Get busy. Start playing with this tool. Like, play, play, play, tinker, mess up, all of that stuff, because you don’t have an option.”
Micaela Mathre 21:00
Yeah.That’s interesting. When you think about sort of translating a message like that in your role, how do you think about that maybe a little bit differently than, you know, Gary’s putting it out there and what he wants folks to be thinking about and doing? Like, how do you think about translating that in a way?
Claude Silver 21:18
Well, definitely in a way that is inclusive. So meaning I don’t want anyone to be left out.He is saying that he needs this agency to move forward in six months when it comes to our AI adoption. That’s what he’s actually saying. So to translate that with one-on-one or in a group is, how many of you are actively playing with Gemini today? How many of you are actually playing with Claude or whatever it is that you’re playing with? How many of you are producing videos? How many of you are doing whatever it is your skill is to expedite, to help you fact find all of those things? Depending on the, the hands that are raised, it’s like, okay, well now you need to be spending an hour out of your day doing this, whether or not it’s at home or at work, but this is required. The train will leave the station without you.
Claude Silver 22:09
So I, I say things like that. And, you know, we want you to win. I want you to stay here forever. Like, you’re amazing, and you need to just get up to speed. I know you’re really busy, and so you might have to carve out time on the weekend to learn this, and make it fun for yourself. That’s how I would do it.
Micaela Mathre 22:27
I’m thinking about that a lot right now. So I run our marketing and our sales teams at LifeLabs, and I think this is true in a lot of workplaces, our days are full. We are doing the most, right?And I think this is true, and I think sometimes I fall into this too, like, we have a scarcity mindset. We have this mindset where we’re like, there’s not enough hours in the day. I have young kids at home, so I’m like, I am in these tight windows, right?
Claude Silver 22:54
Tight.
Micaela Mathre 22:54
Of like, my kid wakes up at 5:00, and then it’s like, we get him to school by 7:00, and then I start work at 8:00. And it’s just like, it’s so full on.And AI’s transforming the workplace. It is transforming every single function of the work that I’ve been doing for 20 years, and I feel the need to like model that for my team. And the truth is, is a lot of it is outside of work. I’m like, I built a website using Claude the other day, but I was like, I did it after hours. I’m like, that, I did not find the time to do that in the workday, you know?
Claude Silver 23:26
I mean, I, I have… I’m doing a keynote next Tuesday, and I worked all last night. I got up at 4:00 to do it this morning just to get it done. And when, you know, my seven-year-old wakes up at 5:00 and then wants to hang, and I’m like, “You can hang, but I can’t talk to you.” And which is a terrible thing to say, but I’m also like, why are you up?
Claude Silver 23:46
Why are you up so early?
Micaela Mathre 23:49
I would love to kinda shift gears and, and maybe sort of continue on this path around emotional fluency. You have described emotional fluency as knowing how to use and express emotions, not just simply possessing emotional intelligence, which I think emotional intelligence, folks are familiar with that. I’d love to hear more about that.Like, how do you think about that if your mission is to create these emotional frameworks in the workplace? Like, tell us what that means.
Claude Silver 24:14
So emotional intelligence has been around for a while. We, we know what that is. I think it’s something either, you know, you’re born with, you learn, you learn and you forget in, uh, higher education, and then you kind of relearn again as you enter the world and build relationships with people and whatnot. I don’t think that’s enough.
Claude Silver 24:32
I think it’s great to have self-awareness, but what am I doing with that self-awareness? And does that mean I’m still gonna interrupt you when you’re speaking? Does that mean I’m not gonna say thank you? I mean, what does that, what does that mean, right? And so emotional fluency is the ability to speak, to literally be literate in emotion and in emotional language, and being able to say, “You know, that didn’t feel really good when you interrupted me three times.” Obviously saying that behind closed doors. Or, “I noticed in that room you shrunk, and I know that’s not you. You know, wanna talk about it?”
Claude Silver 25:09
And I’ll do it later on today with our resident group. I have a fireside chat with them. As… One of the things I’ll say immediately is, “If there’s anyone else in this room that’s dyslexic, come talk to me later.” And so what is that? That’s vulnerability, that’s self-awareness, and that’s also kind of wanting to share an experience, not expecting anyone to raise their hand, but letting them know that there is a leader here that’s got you. I got you. And so any way in which we can translate what we’re feeling in a way that does not charge on another person, pounce on another person, attack, that’s what I think emotional fluency is, because that, being able to speak, understand my emotions, pause for a second, figure out how I then want to address whatever I need to address in the room or with you, then I can build connection. Then I can build relationships. But if I’m just like, “You just interrupted me three times,” well, that didn’t build anything, and in fact, that’s probably scared you and probably would, “No, I didn’t,” you know, got you on the defense. So we need to work on that pause. We need to work on that self-awareness.
Claude Silver 26:18
What is mine? What is yours?And these things take time and practice. And you would say, “Well, why, why does anyone in the workplace need this?” Well, oh my God, the workplace is filled with people. We are the company, and we are in relationship with one another. So if anything, you need to know how to relate to yourself, get this good, and then know how to share, express, get from point A to B with you in a way that is a shared experience rather than a, you know, a one-up experience.
Micaela Mathre 26:54
So interesting. And I think having worked in a variety of different places, there’s a little bit of a fallacy, you know, sometimes that, that people don’t bring emotion into the workplace.And I think the truth is, is that of course we do. Of course we do.
Claude Silver 27:11
How could we not?
Micaela Mathre 27:11
How could we not? Right. Right.
Micaela Mathre 27:14
And I think what you’re bringing to the table is, like, have an awareness of the emotion that you’re bringing, because that is powerful in and of itself. I’d love to hear, actually, and talk a little bit about the role that you think feedback plays in this kind of creating spaces for psychological safety and creating the types of culture where people thrive. Like, what role does feedback play in the workplace?
Claude Silver 27:38
Well, we’ve been getting feedback since we learned how to crawl, and our moms and dads and caretakers, “Yay. look at you, Micaela. She’s crawling.” Or when you got your first three-pointer, or when you got a D on a test. We have been getting feedback-
Micaela Mathre 27:54
Our whole lives
Claude Silver 27:54
Our entire lives. Even in higher education, we need that feedback, ’cause we want to graduate and then go get another education or whatever. I mean, people have been giving us their observations from a place of certainty or a place of just subjectivity forever. We get into the workplace, and all of a sudden someone says, “Hey, do you got a second? I’d love to give you some feedback.” Nope, nope. You don’t know me. Don’t get near me. I don’t know you. You have no idea where I come from, so forth and so on, which is exactly the opposite of what you wanna do.
Claude Silver 28:26
Exactly. But because we need to rewire this world of feedback, for me, it’s about connection. It’s not about correction. Who the heck am I to tell you that my denim shirt is better than your striped shirt?
Micaela Mathre 28:39
Right.
Claude Silver 28:39
Right?
Micaela Mathre 28:40
Right.
Claude Silver 28:40
What, I have a bigger title? I, I wear bigger shoes? No.
Claude Silver 28:43
It’s subjective. And so I think this idea of connecting with a person, which takes time, takes effort, it takes consistency, gets us that much closer to when I come to you with, “Hey, I’d love to talk to you about that presentation you just gave.There were many spelling mistakes on those slides,” you know that I only want the best from you. And so I will say it in a way that is kind, clear, specific today.
Claude Silver 29:09
Not yes, not in three months.
Micaela Mathre 29:11
Not at the performance review, right?
Micaela Mathre 29:13
Where we haven’t even…
Claude Silver 29:15
No.
Micaela Mathre 29:15
Yeah, I would… Bye.
Claude Silver 29:15
Inactionable.
Micaela Mathre 29:16
Uh-huh.
Claude Silver 29:16
Inactionable. And literally, and I’ll say, you know, “Micaela, have you used Grammarly? Let me set it up for you.” What- whatever it is, right?
Claude Silver 29:23
Or, you know, “You might wanna check your facts before you put that on a slide,” or whatever it is. Feedback is, is incredibly important, and, uh, and, you know, the word feedback has gotten such a bad rap.
Claude Silver 29:35
It’s observations. It’s teaching. It’s necessary. So to answer the question, it’s extremely necessary, and it’s extremely subjective. Unless it’s not.
Micaela Mathre 29:47
Right. Right. You did something in the examples that you shared that we actually teach in our feedback workshop, and we call it a micro So because feedback can be so loaded, especially in the workplace, right? I think oftentimes, like, depending on your environment, like, folks are nervous, especially in the workplace today. Like, everybody’s nervous that we’re gonna get fired, that AI’s gonna take our job. We’re all, I think, operating a little bit on the edge.
Micaela Mathre 30:15
And so it can be tough to hear something that you’re like, “Oof, this is a criticism,” or, “I messed up,” or, “I did something wrong.” So one of the things we teach is a micro yes, and that’s, like, um, I actually do this most often, and it’s kind of our company culture, via Slack, where I’ll message… If something happens in a meeting or I see something, I’m like, “Oh, it’s not… You know, I’ve got some feedback on that,” you just send them a heads-up.
Micaela Mathre 30:37
You’re like, “Hey, I have a little bit of feedback on that presentation. Will you let me know when’s a good time for you?” And you give them that, and I heard you do this in your examples. Like, you give them that minute to be like, “Yes,” like, “This is gonna work for me.” Or actually, like, I’ve had, you know, colleagues tell me before like, “Not right now.”
Claude Silver 30:54
Yep.
Micaela Mathre 30:54
“I gotta walk into a client call.”
Claude Silver 30:56
Yep.
Micaela Mathre 30:56
“This is not a…” And that is critical, ’cause I don’t know that. I don’t know that they’re about to, like, walk into a client call, and that would be a terrible time to give them feedback because then, we call it a amygdala hijack, then all of a sudden they’re like whoosh, like “I’m now in fight or flight, and I have to go talk to a client.” And like, I just think there’s some tools that folks need in order to, like, do that and do that well and do that consistently.
Claude Silver 31:21
I couldn’t agree more. You need to prepare your feedback. I can’t just shoot from the hips, because I’ll be all over the place. So I need to prepare it, I need to write it, I need to ask you. Is there an invitation here? You’re gonna say yes, no, maybe tomorrow, whatever.
Claude Silver 31:36
But I also need to have trained you or spoken to you about how to receive feedback, and that it’s not a death sentence, and it’s not you’re gonna be fired. That’s a very different kind of conversation.
Claude Silver 31:50
And hopefully, if we get to that conversation, you will have-
Micaela Mathre 31:54
You’ve had enough feedback along the way
Claude Silver 31:55
… breadcrumbs along the way to know, like your performance is tanking, and I, there’s nothing I can do here. I, I, we’re, we’re out of solutions.But we wanna take away the gut punch. We wanna take away that blindsidedness, because the blindsidedness, well, think about how unfair that is to someone. And i- it’s happened to me.
Micaela Mathre 32:14
Claude Silver 32:15
And, um, it doesn’t feel good.
Micaela Mathre 32:17
Claude Silver 32:17
I, I wanna know, you know, where, if I’m grounded or not grounded, and that’s what I need-
Micaela Mathre 32:23
Claude Silver 32:23
… to just survive every day. So feedback is essential.You know, I wish there was a way to put what we’re talking about in earlier education, help students and teachers know, like, this is something that’s going to happen-
Micaela Mathre 32:37
Yes
Claude Silver 32:37
… in this world out here-
Micaela Mathre 32:39
Yes
Claude Silver 32:39
… many, many years from now, but we wanna prepare you. And that’s-
Micaela Mathre 32:42
Give you some skills and some tools.
Claude Silver 32:44
Micaela Mathre 32:45
Claude Silver 32:45
That’s where the emotional intelligence, I think, education really needs to come in, but in a, in a way that is a little bit prescriptive, I would say. This is what you’re learning now. And you have young kids. I have young kids, and walking through the elementary school the other day. you know, it’s, “We are kind. We are respectful.” “We are…” Which is awesome. And I, and, and years to come, I wanna make sure that they know, hey, that was an emotional intelligence you were learning.
Micaela Mathre 33:11
I love that we’re all about, like, behavior change. It’s just a small behavior change.
Claude Silver 33:15
Holy cow.
Micaela Mathre 33:15
It’s like it’ll take you literally five minutes a day.
Claude Silver 33:18
I mean-
Micaela Mathre 33:19
But the impact of that could be enormous.
Claude Silver 33:20
That’s enormous.
Micaela Mathre 33:21
Like… You know?
Claude Silver 33:22
So that builds the framework. For me, the framework is high touch, consistent high touch, and also creating that sense of belonging with someone. And that comes easy to some of us, and it doesn’t come easy to others, and that’s where you have to kind of find the jigsaw puzzle pieces and, and help that person connect.
Micaela Mathre 33:43
You know, we have a lot of leaders that listen to the podcast. I think folks will be really intrigued by your work, and I encourage everybody to read your book.But we’d love for you to talk to us a little bit about the system side of things. So how do you set up these emotional frameworks? What does that look like? Maybe some examples.
Claude Silver 34:00
Well, it’s funny, until Gary used the word emotional framework, I, I didn’t even think about them as frameworks. You know, they’re just things that I think I innately do when you’re in the business of people and you love people and you wanna take care of people, without coddling. What I will say is this is some of my ways of ensuring that I am scaling empathy, which then we can reverse engineer into the frameworks.
Claude Silver 34:25
So we just went through talent planning. And while we were in talent planning, if I’m listening to one of our C-suite or leaders say something great about Micaela, I may know Micaela, I may not, I’m Slacking you, “Wow, I just heard your pod lead say the most incredible things about you. Way to go.”
Micaela Mathre 34:44
Positive gossip.
Claude Silver 34:45
Right? So I’m this, I’m this. I’m doing this all the time, doing this, doing this.So yesterday, I met with one of those people that I had… Didn’t know, but I was like, “Oh, hey, someone says you’re killing it.” What I could say to them was, “Hey, it’s so great to meet you. You know, why I reached out is ’cause obviously you’re rocking it. I would love to know the secret of your success.Like, how do you do it?” Like, and, and then I’ll say to them, “Be big.” Like, “Be big.”
Micaela Mathre 35:09
Ooh, I like that.
Claude Silver 35:09
Like, be like, you know, your grandma really wants you to tell me this. And so it brings so much good intention, and if you think about it, endorphins to that person. They’re smiling and they’re like, “Me? Really? I mean, I’m, whatever.
Claude Silver 35:22
I’m a creator.” You know, and I’m getting into, “Oh, can you show me something?” And, oh, and then I might bring myself into it. Like, “Oh, when I was a strategist and I was, you know, selling toothpaste, I had to think about that consumer this way. It’s interesting you did that.”
Claude Silver 35:34
So in another one-on-one with, again, someone that I had been positive gossiping to, to him I said, “You know what? Let’s play rose, bud, thorn. This is a great way for me to get to know you. Rose, something great. Bud, working on. Thorn, you know, something you, you wish maybe I could take care of or you’re not so psyched on.” And he went there. That framework I think is very helpful because that’s, that’s not me saying like, “So how’s it going?”
Micaela Mathre 35:57
Right.
Claude Silver 35:57
And you’re like, “Well, I, the sky is blue but I don’t know how is it going.” Like so it’s literally like, what is going well? What are you excited for? ‘Cause that’s so great. “Oh, I’m switching teams and I’m, I’m gonna be on, you know, Gillette.” “Oh, that’s really cool. It makes sense. I mean, you got a great mustache, right?”
Claude Silver 36:13
And then, you know, listening to whatever they say that is something that maybe we can tweak. Maybe it’s something that is going on within their, the nucleus of their team.
Claude Silver 36:22
And maybe within the next week or two, I hear from more people in that team, and I’m collecting data and finding patterns that, like- Oh, what he said is going on seems like it is really going on, that no one is really listening to junior creative’s ideas. They’re just going for the big idea or something.
Claude Silver 36:40
So that’s a way that I can really take what they’re saying and do something with it, because one of the things that I’m very big on is when someone comes to you, even if I’m the one that’s proactively reaching out, there’s an action.
Claude Silver 36:55
I always wanna walk away with some kind of action, and the action could be to store it in my memory. The action could be to write the name down. The action could be like, “Gary, you have to meet this person.” You know, the action p- can be like, “Oh, let me check back with this person in three month…” It can be eight million things.
Claude Silver 37:12
Then, yesterday, I had another meeting, an hour-long meeting, with a very, very senior member who has been unable to really reach his team and not be high touch with them, and they had come to me on several occasions to tell me. You know, we just started talking about the morale, and what ended up happening was he ended up sharing with me this PTSD from his last job that he’s carrying into this job, which is preventing him from showing himself, and all he wants to do is, you know, CYA.
Claude Silver 37:41
This was in person. I said, “Oh, you, you have PTSD?” He’s like, “Is that what it’s called?” I said, “Well, yeah, you’re holding onto some trauma ’cause you were blindsided over there. That’s not gonna happen here. I hear you, that, like, God, that sucks, but I have to tell you, that’s not what we do here, and you will never be blindsided, and that’s not how Gary rolls.That’s not how we roll.” So here are some examples of just creating and holding space for someone and also, like, giving them something to work with, to chew on.
Micaela Mathre 38:13
Like an invitation. It sounds like-
Claude Silver 38:15
An invitation
Micaela Mathre 38:15
… in that last conversation, it was an invitation-
Claude Silver 38:17
Oh, yeah
Micaela Mathre 38:17
… right? And, like, maybe also connecting the dots a little bit. Like, I think, gosh, like, having been in a lot of different work environments, like, we all probably have some trauma-
Claude Silver 38:28
We all do
Micaela Mathre 38:28
… from prior like a bad boss or a bad manager or a time where we got thrown under the bus by the CEO. Like, I think a lot of us carry that with us, and that’s so powerful to have that conversation and say, like, “I see you.” “That’s a valid experience.”
Claude Silver 38:45
I see you, yeah, and like-
Micaela Mathre 38:47
And that’s not the team that we have here.
Claude Silver 38:48
No. and listen, it’s gonna take you a while-but I really want… I really hope you can get to a place where you trust us. And then because he is having such a hard time-being high touch with his team, I said, “You know what? This is what I do, and I just, sometimes I make this stuff up. Sometimes I don’t. This one I do.” I was like, “Every day, I just Slack five different people. I’m like, ‘Hey, haven’t seen you. How was your Labor Day weekend? Hey, what’s up? I hear you’re crushing it. Hey, miss you.’
Claude Silver 39:13
“Let’s get some time together.” I’m like, “I want you to do that, but I don’t want you to do that with your top talent. I want you to go to your steady performers and people who don’t know you and say, ‘Hey, would love to get some time. Hey, how’s it going?
Claude Silver 39:26
Heard you really crushed it on that video.’” And he literally was like, “I didn’t think about that.” And I was like, “Good. Well, here you go.” That’s really what I would say the framework is really built on. Consistency, though.
Micaela Mathre 39:38
Is key.
Claude Silver 39:39
It’s key. You gotta keep showing up.You gotta keep showing up. One of the things I’ll say is when we hire someone, you know, we’ve spent three months looking for them, and we hire them, and they’re amped, and we’re amped, and they come in as giants.
Claude Silver 39:52
And then sometimes slowly but surely, you see them nine months later, and they shrunk. What happened? You know, I can’t follow them around all day. What happened? And that’s where I wanna catch that person and say, like, “Figure out what happened and how can we get you back to feeling great about yourself and, and knowing that not only do we have your back, we want you to just, like, soar like an eagle.”
Micaela Mathre 40:17
What you were talking about earlier, too, around just paying attention and observing people and, like, noticing, that can be really powerful.
Claude Silver 40:24
You have to listen with more than your ears. Behind the behind. My eyes, body language, all of that.
Claude Silver 40:31
And, and somehow open your heart to that. Like, this person might be having a hard time. You can see if someone’s eyes water. You can-
Micaela Mathre 40:39
Yes
Claude Silver 40:39
… you know, these things are- It certainly doesn’t take Einstein, ’cause I am not that, but it takes paying attention.
Micaela Mathre 40:45
I’m thinking about, like, a lot of leaders right now who are just so tapped, and the concept of, like, something high touch like this feels impossible. Like, what advice do you have, or, like, how do you think about the opportunity?
Claude Silver 41:02
I like how you said that because at first, my first thought was, well, my view on leadership is we work for them. So if we work for them, then your job not o- not only is to grow and develop them, but it’s to hold space for them.
Claude Silver 41:16
And then now I’m thinking, while you said it’s an opportunity, I think it’s an opportunity to get to know yourself more, because it does take some kind of awakening, some kind of self-awareness in you to be able to reach across and kind of, like, see how you’re doing or really, really actively listen.
Claude Silver 41:34
You know, we saw this in, um, BLM after the murder of George Floyd. There was a leader that came in right after that on that Monday, and he just said, and he didn’t mean anything by it, he just said, “So how was everyone’s weekend?” You know, and you had, like, you know, three people in there that were camera off, and they came to me, and they were like, “What do you mean, how was our weekend?” Right? And it’s just the intent was there, the impact failed.
Claude Silver 42:00
And there’s so much for us as humans to pay attention to now, and as leaders in this crazy, ambiguous, what is gonna happen working world, that I think what we can at least offer is consistency. You know, I, I love that word.
Claude Silver 42:15
Transparency to the best, and some kind of vulnerability. You know what? I don’t know what’s happening. It’s a little bit alarming for me, too, but I know that I’m gonna tell you whatever I… any information I get, I’m gonna, I’m gonna bring to you.
Micaela Mathre 42:28
Okay. We, we love a framework at Life Lab, so I’d love for you to tell us a little bit about the LIE framework. You call it the LIE framework.
Claude Silver 42:36
Yeah, the LIE framework.
Micaela Mathre 42:37
What does it do?
Claude Silver 42:37
I put the acronym together because I really wanted people to be able to remember how to help themselves through an imposter syndrome. And an imposter syndrome-
Micaela Mathre 42:47
I’m gonna take notes.
Claude Silver 42:47
And imposter syndrome is a lie. It is very old patterning and old sentences and thematics that we are putting into our brain, for some reason, I don’t know why, that we are literally trying to feed our brain with every single day, which keeps us in this negative talk track internally, 24/7, 24/7.
Claude Silver 43:10
“I am bad. I am dumb. I never have enough time for my family.” And so the way to combat that, I’ll just go straight to it, is to take out a piece of paper. Literally take out a piece of paper, put a line down the middle. Imposter syndrome says, “I am dumb.” Okay, now let me find the evidence. Am I dumb? Well, I worked for Gary Vaynerchuk for 12 years. Probably not dumb there. I was able to write a bestseller, so I’m probably not dumb there. You know, I’m talking to you, and you’re really smart, so I’m probably not dumb there. Okay, so that’s all negative.
Claude Silver 43:44
There’s no evidence that I am dumb. If I am not dumb, then what? I need to be able to fill this other column with something that not only is positive, but is true. I can’t be like, “Well, I’m a genius, and I’m in Mensa.” So I have to be able to say something that also lights me up, right? You have to be able to combat that negative talk track, ’cause this negative talk track will be there unless we can silence it, and only we can silence it. Only you can silence yours.
Claude Silver 44:13
So if I’m not dumb, then what am I? Well, I know I’m an experiential learner. Okay, that lights me up. Doesn’t thrill me, but that’s true. I am really fascinated with human behavior. Whatever it is, I have to put something there that’s like, “Yeah, that’s dope,” and then find the evidence for that. Yeah, I’m an experiential learner. I talk with my hands. I need a whiteboard. Yes, I’m a different kind of learner.
Claude Silver 44:36
I listen to audio rather than read. Whatever it is, I need to find the evidence to the positive one. But I’m not talking about being a Pollyanna. I’m talking about the real. Like, okay, I’m not dumb. I wrote a good book or something. Find evidence for that. And then, this is the biggest part, whatever that next sentence is, you need to plaster that all over the place, in your wallet, on your laptop, on your mirror, in your bathroom, because this creepy crawler is going to try to come in. This is… I don’t know how that happens, but we’re smarter than this.
Claude Silver 45:15
This, we have to remember, this negative talk track is on repeat, so you need to prove it wrong. And the way you can prove it wrong and prove that it’s a lie is by finding the evidence that it does not exist. It is not true. So what is true?
Micaela Mathre 45:30
And then you come up with that sort of, like, mantra of like this is the new story
Claude Silver 45:35
… the new story that you just repeat, and-
Micaela Mathre 45:37
I wanna tell myself, and, like, and it’s gonna serve me in a way that that old story is not, has not served me in my life. Right?
Claude Silver 45:46
You have to just have recognition that that old story might be really comfortable- ’cause you’ve lived it since you were seven.
Micaela Mathre 45:53
Right. It’s very familiar, and I love that invitation to write a new story. And, and in your book, you talk about this concept of, like, a new song playing in your head.
Claude Silver 46:02
Yeah, playing a new song in your head.
Micaela Mathre 46:03
Like, yeah, what is that, and, sort of finding that for yourself. Thank you for sharing that with listeners.
Micaela Mathre 46:09
We’ve talked a little bit about AI and the massive opportunity and even the directive that you and Gary are giving folks at Vayner to leverage and use AI. When you think about the people and experience function, and the opportunities for your team to use AI, and I see this across the board, and as a, you know, company that does leadership training, we’re working with organizations.
Micaela Mathre 46:34
And nowadays, there’s just, like, so many ways to leverage AI, whether it’s through avatar coaching or, you know, I’ll do this sometimes as well, like figuring out some feedback language. How do you think about using AI, whether it’s to give feedback or to coach somebody? What is important to retain when it comes to your own critical thinking or approach to that, and what do you think it’s like, eh, it’s okay. You can augment that or supplement that with AI?
Claude Silver 47:07
I think when we’re using AI in the people and experience function, and when we’re using it that has to do anything with another human being, I think it’s very important to have a critical eye on what you are being told, and use your intuition or use the evidence, or use the, you know, the other people around you to kind of either prove that right, prove that wrong, or be in the middle with it.
Claude Silver 47:29
AI is serving us something that’s very black and white. It’s very binary. Even if I push it, it’s not gonna give me the answer to this problem. I mean, it’s, it’s not human. It’s not living and breathing, and so I think one needs to have very healthy judgment, not skepticism, but just a good dose of, huh, interesting.
Claude Silver 47:53
Curiosity around that, especially when it comes to dealing with another person. So if I’m gonna give feedback to someone and I’m using AI, I can say, “I know that this person’s very sensitive and gets triggered when I do or when they do this.” And so AI will write me something back in a very warm tone that’s probably very relevant for how I speak, and then I’m going to rehearse it, for sure.
Claude Silver 48:18
And then hopefully deliver it in a way that that person can hear. The other thing I think AI has been helpful with, obviously, is when it comes to assimilating reviews and assimilating, you know, sheets and sheets of paper, and just kind of getting to the crux of what are we trying to say.
Claude Silver 48:34
So back to the clarity, the kindness and the clarity, and the specifics of what you wanna tell someone in a feedback. It can help you with the steps. Make sure you land this.Breathe. Take a minute. Check in with the person. Next one. You know?
Micaela Mathre 48:50
Ooh, I like that.We, um, are just launching a workshop on AI discernment that I took just last week, and we are going through those motions in the workshop around, like, even pausing to ask, like, what is something that you wanna do first pass with AI, and what is something that you wanna do first pass with your own self, and, and why? And, like, and then what is something you might, you know, bring up later?
Micaela Mathre 49:17
We do a thing called mop the slop as well, which is, like, how to give feedback on AI slop, which is something that is also prolific, In, I think we’re just, like, overwhelmed, especially in the marketing function, and I’m guilty. I’ve sent AI slop before. I’m like, I, like, I am absolutely guilty.
Micaela Mathre 49:37
I’ve literally sent it to the exec team, you know, and, and we’re going through this practice, like, in the workshop, and like, how do you mop the slop? How do you, like, give specific feedback on something? And part of that is, like, the discernment around, like, there’s something in the workshop that, did you spend as much time putting this together as somebody who’s going to spend reading it? You know, that it’s so possible with AI to spend literally less time on the input than somebody would be… And it’s like respect everyone’s time, you know? With
Claude Silver 50:06
I like that
Micaela Mathre 50:06
… with the output.
Claude Silver 50:07
I got- very upset with my friend ChatGPT today.
Micaela Mathre 50:11
Does he really have it?
Claude Silver 50:11
I mean, really upset. It’s like, that’s not my tone. You know my tone of voice.
Micaela Mathre 50:15
You’re off here.
Claude Silver 50:16
I was like, yeah, I write in American English, and I was getting so pissed. And so I couldn’t get pissed, but I was like, inside I was like, “God, you know better than that.” And then I’m like, “Well, Claude, really? Claude, really?
Micaela Mathre 50:27
It’s true.
Claude Silver 50:27
The human Claude, like…”
Micaela Mathre 50:29
All right, Claude, to round us out today, we always ask the same question as we wrap up the LeaderLab, and that is, if you can share one small behavioral change that you have made recently that helped you to lead differently, and what prompted you to make it.
Claude Silver 50:45
One behavioral change that I have made recently is to let things go. Let it go, and be okay with ambiguity. So what that really means is trust. If I think about something that is, is nebulous to me, I don’t understand necessarily what I’m supposed to be doing, I know that I trust that I’ll figure it out, and I’ll figure it out with support. That’s been a big change, I think, that has recently happened, I would say, throughout the summer.
Claude Silver 51:18
What prompted me is that I’ve been at Vayner for 12 years. The people and experience team is amazing. They are rocking and rolling. I’m actually not needed, and so if I’m not needed there, and I mean that with, with such heart and goodness, because they rock.
Micaela Mathre 51:34
They got it.
Claude Silver 51:34
They got it, and remember, I never wanted to do HR.
Micaela Mathre 51:37
Yeah,
Claude Silver 51:37
So if that’s the case, then what am I going to do with this, and how are we going to let the company know how to use me? And so we don’t have an answer right now, and really, Gary is the only one that can give that answer, and he’s not ready to give it.
Claude Silver 51:54
So I have to be okay with being in the gray, and knowing that whatever I do, I am going to do my darnedest to provide value to that person in the 15 minutes I have, in the hour I have with them. So I have to trust that eventually we’ll get there, and I’m okay in the gray.
Micaela Mathre 52:12
Claude, thank you so much for joining us-
Claude Silver 52:14
Thank you. This was awesome
Micaela Mathre 52:15
… on the LeaderLab today. Such a pleasure to have you, and if folks wanna stay in touch or keep up with your work, I highly encourage everybody to pick up a copy of your book, but is LinkedIn the best place to find you? Where can they follow you?
Claude Silver 52:28
LinkedIn, Substack, and my website- claudesilver.com. But yeah, I love, I love hearing from people. So thank you so much for-
Micaela Mathre 52:34
Oh, it’s great
Claude Silver 52:34
… for having me today. It’s been awesome.
Micaela Mathre 52:36
Absolutely, and you’ll see all of that linked in the show notes.